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(Forum Administrator made this post:)
TENDENCIES TO BE AVOIDED
(by E. M. Bounds)
Let us often look at Brainerd in the woods of America pouring out his
very soul before God for the perishing heathen without whose salvation
nothing could make him happy. Prayer—secret fervent believing
prayer—lies at the root of all personal godliness. A competent
knowledge of the language where a missionary lives, a mild and winning
temper, a heart given up to God in closet religion—these, these are
the attainments which, more than all knowledge, or all other gifts, will
fit us to become the instruments of God in the great work of human
redemption.—Carrey’s Brotherhood, Serampore
There are two extreme tendencies in the ministry. The one is to shut
itself out from intercourse with the people. The monk, the hermit were
illustrations of this; they shut themselves out from men to be more with
God. They failed, of course. Our being with God is of use only as we
expend its priceless benefits on men. This age, neither with preacher
nor with people, is much intent on God. Our hankering is not that way.
We shut ourselves to our study, we become students, bookworms, Bible
worms, sermon makers, noted for literature, thought, and sermons; but
the people and God, where are they? Out of heart, out of mind. Preachers
who are great thinkers, great students must be the greatest of prayers,
or else they will be the greatest of backsliders, heartless
professionals, rationalistic, less than the least of preachers in
God’s estimate.
The other tendency is to thoroughly popularize the ministry. He is no
longer God’s man, but a man of affairs, of the people. He prays not,
because his mission is to the people. If he can move the people, create
an interest, a sensation in favor of religion, an interest in Church
work—he is satisfied. His personal relation to God is no factor in his
work. Prayer has little or no place in his plans. The disaster and ruin
of such a ministry cannot be computed by earthly arithmetic. What the
preacher is in prayer to God, for himself, for his people, so is his
power for real good to men, so is his true fruitfulness, his true
fidelity to God, to man, for time, for eternity.
It is impossible for the preacher to keep his spirit in harmony with the
divine nature of his high calling without much prayer. That the preacher
by dint of duty and laborious fidelity to the work and routine of the
ministry can keep himself in trim and fitness is a serious mistake. Even
sermon-making, incessant and taxing as an art, as a duty, as a work, or
as a pleasure, will engross and harden, will estrange the heart, by
neglect of prayer, from God. The scientist loses God in nature. The
preacher may lose God in his sermon.
Prayer freshens the heart of the preacher, keeps it in tune with God and
in sympathy with the people, lifts his ministry out of the chilly air of
a profession, fructifies routine and moves every wheel with the facility
and power of a divine unction.
Mr. Spurgeon says: “Of course the preacher is above all others
distinguished as a man of prayer. He prays as an ordinary Christian,
else he were a hypocrite. He prays more than ordinary Christians, else
he were disqualified for the office he has undertaken. If you as
ministers are not very prayerful, you are to be pitied. If you become
lax in sacred devotion, not only will you need to be pitied but your
people also, and the day cometh in which you shall be ashamed and
confounded. All our libraries and studies are mere emptiness compared
with our closets. Our seasons of fasting and prayer at the Tabernacle
have been high days indeed; never has heaven’s gate stood wider; never
have our hearts been nearer the central Glory.”
The praying which makes a prayerful ministry is not a little praying put
in as we put flavor to give it a pleasant smack, but the praying must be
in the body, and form the blood and bones. Prayer is no petty duty, put
into a corner; no piecemeal performance made out of the fragments of
time which have been snatched from business and other engagements of
life; but it means that the best of our time, the heart of our time and
strength must be given. It does not mean the closet absorbed in the
study or swallowed up in the activities of ministerial duties; but it
means the closet first, the study and activities second, both study and
activities freshened and made efficient by the closet. Prayer that
affects one’s ministry must give tone to one’s life. The praying
which gives color and bent to character is no pleasant, hurried pastime.
It must enter as strongly into the heart and life as Christ’s
“strong crying and tears” did; must draw out the soul into an agony
of desire as Paul’s did; must be an inwrought fire and force like the
“effectual, fervent prayer” of James; must be of that quality which,
when put into the golden censer and incensed before God, works mighty
spiritual throes and revolutions.
Prayer is not a little habit pinned on to us while we were tied to our
mother’s apron strings; neither is it a little decent quarter of a
minute’s grace said over an hour’s dinner, but it is a most serious
work of our most serious years. It engages more of time and appetite
than our longest dinings or richest feasts. The prayer that makes much
of our preaching must be made much of. The character of our praying will
determine the character of our preaching. Light praying will make light
preaching. Prayer makes preaching strong, gives it unction, and makes it
stick. In every ministry weighty for good, prayer has always been a
serious business.
The preacher must be preeminently a man of prayer. His heart must
graduate in the school of prayer. In the school of prayer only can the
heart learn to preach. No learning can make up for the failure to pray.
No earnestness, no diligence, no study, no gifts will supply its lack.
Talking to men for God is a great thing, but talking to God for men is
greater still. He will never talk well and with real success to men for
God who has not learned well how to talk to God for men. More than this,
prayerless words in the pulpit and out of it are deadening words.
(Brother Roger Responds:)
Hi Joe,
I don't mean to be controversial, but I don't agree with the author. His
words sound pious, but they don't fit my Christian experience.
Furthermore, prayer is no better indication of someone's walk than Bible
reading, Bible study, open worship, communal fellowship, etc. I believe
the author reflects our current idea about prayer, which has gone way
beyond the Bible in its expectations of efficacy. The Bible does not
make any guarantees to the believer in terms of Godliness vs. prayer
frequency. Neither does it promise a closer walk with God for those who
pray often vs. those who don’t. The purpose of prayer is communication
not capability.
Furthermore, in this climate of anti-intellectualism, we dare not trade
piety for ignorance. The Bible does not set Bible study against prayer
as if one held preference over the other. God never says that prayer
will keep great thinkers from becoming backsliders. Likewise, the Bible
never says that backsliding is the result of praying too little.
Finally, the Bible does not say that prayer is the prerequisite to
tenderheartedness. The mistaken assumption at play here is, given that
spirituality must balance rationality, the believer must pray often
because prayer is the only means to spirituality.
I believe the author has things backward. Prayer is not the means to
tenderhearted humility. Even stonehearted pagans ask God for things.
Jesus warned us about praying with our “many words.” He taught us
that God already knows what we need and to trust him for them. His model
prayer teaches us to bring our contrition and humility to our prayer,
not the other way around. It is not true that to neglect prayer is to
risk estrangement and hardness of heart. Estrangement may result in a
lack of prayer, but a lack of prayer is not necessarily evidence of
estrangement just as silence between lovers does not indicate a loss of
love.
Immature faith requires the “feeling” of intimacy as if through our
prayers we bring God down closer. Mature faith realizes that God is
already closer than any human lover can ever be. Sentimentality becomes
self-knowledge as our faith moves beyond a feeling toward intimate
knowledge. As we gain wisdom, we learn that true spirituality is the
Spirit at work in our hearts, not our work to achieve piety through
prayer.
(Cheryl responds)
Bro.
Joe,
E.M. Bounds is one of the most powerfully anointed authors I have ever
read. I am in TOTAL agreement with this article.
The power of prayer is so misunderstood because most people don't pray!
If prayer is not a part of your life then you will find yourself giving
all kinds of excuses not to pray and you certainly won't see the
necessity of it.
I don't totally understand everything about prayer. I just know that it
works!!!
The power that comes from time spent in prayer is awesome, the faith and
strength that comes from time spent in prayer is awesome and the
relationship with our Father that comes from time spent in prayer is
awesome!!!
Yes it's true, the Word is powerful and strength and power come from
putting this into our hearts but put prayer with that Word that's inside
of you and WOW!!! It's amazing!
Unfortunately, there is a lot of self-sacrifice that comes along with
having a strong prayer life. Our flesh rebels against it all the way!
This is probably the reason very few people pray.I believe God puts a
big emphasis on the necessity of prayer...2nd Chronicles 7:14 for
example. In James Chpt. 4 verse 8 we can see that IF we will draw near
to Him He will draw near to us. It's a two way street so to speak.
Prayer certainly draws us nearer to Him!
Cheryl
(Joe’s
Response)
Hi
Roger,
Jesus was a man of prayer who only did what He seen the Father do (Jn
5:19-20).
We are also comended to pray without ceasing (1 Th 5:17; Lk 18:1; Rom
12:12; Eph 6:16).
Prov 3:5-6
5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own
understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. (KJV)
How are we to do this if we don't pray unto Him?
The apostles seen prayer as important (Acts 6:4).
1 Cor 7:5 is also a verse which shows the importance of prayer and how
it affects our life.
5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time,
that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together
again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency. (KJV)
And Php 4:6
6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and
supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
(KJV)
These are just a few verses which show the importance of prayer. Prayer
helps us to not to fall into temptation (Mt 26:41). Prayer does so much,
even more than what we often expect, like I'm sure the case was for
those praying ceaselessly for Peter (Acts 12:5-16).
I know personally that prayer mixed with studying the Word, makes me
much stronger than if I didn't. For without God, without communion with
Him I'd fare much worse.
God Bless,
Joe
(Roger
Responds)
Hi
Joe,
You understand, I'm not suggesting that people don't pray. Whether we
pray or not wasn't my issue with the author. I agree with you that
prayer is communion with God. What I take issue with is the cause and
effect expectation people place on prayer. I don't mean to pick on
Luchnos but when I read statements like
"The power of prayer is so misunderstood because most people don't
pray!"
I ask myself, is that really true? Is that the Biblical picture? Where
is the true locus of its power? In my many words? in the duration of my
prayer time? Or is the power in God?
"there is a lot of self-sacrifice that comes along with having a
strong prayer life."
Why? If prayer is communing with God, why should it be so hard? Why is
sacrifice involved? If God is real, if he is ever present everywhere,
then I can pray any time, any place. Nothing hard about it. I just pray
when I have something to say.
But I digress. Like I said, the issue for me is the mistaken view that a
"good prayer life" is a guarantee of something. Where do we
find this expectation in the Bible? For example, here is a quote from
the article,
"Prayer—secret fervent believing prayer—lies at the root of all
personal godliness."
Here the author makes a cause and effect relationship between prayer and
godliness. The implication is that if you want godliness then pray. If
you aren't praying you won't get godliness. If you catch someone not
being godly, you can bet your bottom dollar they aren't praying. Well, I
question that. What Biblical justification do we have to make that kind
of one for one correspondance? I agree with you. We ought to pray. But
what do we expect will happen when we do? The author seems to expect
that those who pray fervently will recieve godliness. But is that a
valid expectation?
"Preachers who are great thinkers, great students must be the
greatest of prayers, or else they will be the greatest of backsliders,
heartless professionals, rationalistic, less than the least of preachers
in God’s estimate."
Here we have another example of the author's tight correlation between
prayer and "greatness." Only preachers who pray will be great
thinkers, great students, etc. Without a good prayer life, people will
backslide and become heartless.
I'm suggesting that he is totally wrong. There is no direct
correspondance between a good prayer life and godliness. There is no
cause and effect relationship between a lack of prayer and backsliding.
(Joe
Responds)
I
thought that I'd add this verse to the discussion.
Jam 5:16
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye
may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth
much. (KJV)
According to this verse it is a righteous man that prays. Is these
evidence showing that Elijah prayed to be righteous or that he was
righteous, therefore he prayed?
God Bless,
Joe
(C.
H. Responds to Brother Roger)
Read
the biographies of the great men and women of faith in Christianity,
from Savonarola to Charles Finny and beyond, they were all praying
people. Not only did they pray, but they prayed a lot and prayed
frequently. There were a few men that were called masters of prayer
throughout the history of Christianity. One of those men was E. M.
Bounds, a master of prayer and mighty man of God. I am currently reading
the biography of George Mueller. He placed an extreme importance on
prayer and flatly declared that every failure and all lack of progress
was directly linked to prayerlessness.
However, that is second-hand information at the best. Let me tell you
how I feel about prayer. I can tell you from personal experience that
George Mueller was correct in his statement. I started out praying and
was delivered from some very powerful and dangerous evil situations
because of prayer. My life without prayer is fruitless, with prayer the
power and positive activity flows like a river. Leaving my home without
praying is like going out naked in public.
Paul was a man of prayer and requested prayer from the Churches that he
wrote to. The early Church continued in prayer. Jesus prayed all night.
Should we not also pray?
(Luke 6:12 NKJV) Now it came to pass in those days that He went out to
the mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.
(Acts 10:1-2 NKJV) There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius,
a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, {2} a devout man
and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously
to the people, and prayed to God always.
(Acts 14:23 NKJV) So when they had appointed elders in every church, and
prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had
believed.
(It is difficult to pray quickly with fasting.)
(James 5:16-18 NKJV) Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray
for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer
of a righteous man avails much. {17} Elijah was a man with a nature like
ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not
rain on the land for three years and six months. {18} And he prayed
again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit.
(Mark 6:46-48 NKJV) And when He had sent them away, He departed to the
mountain to pray. {47} Now when evening came, the boat was in the middle
of the sea; and He was alone on the land. {48} Then He saw them
straining at rowing, for the wind was against them. Now about the fourth
watch of the night He came to them, walking on the sea, and would have
passed them by.
(You can figure it out, from evening to the fourth watch of the night.)
(Luke 18:1-8 NKJV) Then He spoke a parable to them, that men always
ought to pray and not lose heart, {2} saying: "There was in a
certain city a judge who did not fear God nor regard man. {3} "Now
there was a widow in that city; and she came to him, saying, 'Get
justice for me from my adversary.' {4} "And he would not for a
while; but afterward he said within himself, 'Though I do not fear God
nor regard man, {5} 'yet because this widow troubles me I will avenge
her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.'" {6} Then the Lord
said, "Hear what the unjust judge said. {7} "And shall God not
avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears
long with them? {8} "I tell you that He will avenge them speedily.
Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on
the earth?"
(Luke 21:36 NKJV) "Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be
counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to
stand before the Son of Man."
(1 Th 5:17 NKJV) pray without ceasing,
I believe that I have posted enough scriptures, but there are certainly
many more. It is not important what we think about prayer, but what the
word of God says. The great men and women of the history of Christianity
read these same Scriptures and came away with the truth that they must
pray and pray a lot. This they did and they accomplished great things
for God. They all, to the person, give credit for their accomplishments
to the fact that they were people of prayer. Not one was slack in prayer
and not one was recorded to have said that prayer was unimportant or
that it was unnecessary to pray very much. Everyone can draw their own
conclusions from the Scriptures and history, but I would never believe
from the evidence presented that we should be weak in prayer.
(Wesley
Responds to Brother Roger)
Roger,
I have to confess that I'm somewhat puzzled by your remarks.
If I hadn't read your posts before, your comments now would alarm me.
Jesus told the disciples in Gethsemane, Matthew 26:41 "Watch and
pray, lest you enter into temptation, the spirit indeed is willing, but
the flesh is weak.
Would this not be a promise? That through prayer we would receive a
strengthening to deal with the weakness of the flesh. What is he talking
about? Spiritually they are dead and dull and sleepy; and through
prayer, they wouldn't have to be this way.
Wouldn't this be related to godliness? The person whose flesh weak in
doing what is right through persevering in prayer can get strength to
help them in their weakness.
How about Jesus comments about prayer in Matthew 6? Didn't he promise a
open reward to those who pray secretly? Couldn't this not include an
increase in godliness?
How about Paul in 1 Cor. 14 where he talks about praying with the spirit
and praying in tongues? Doesn't he say, that he thanks God that he
speaks with tongues more than them all?
Doesn't he say that he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not to
man, but unto God? And that he that speaks in an unknown tongue edifies
himself. Do w2e not need this building up? Is this not a promise?
These are three examples of benefits promised to the paray-er, and I
don't see that many of the things mentioned by bounds couldnot fit in
here some place.
What thinkest thou?
Wesley???
(Joe
Responds)
Hi
Guys,
I agree with you, but I also have been searching the Scriptures from
Roger's point of view to gain understanding. The following verses I've
found may be along his train of thought (I think), that a person must be
a doer of God's will before he will be heard. Any one who wants to
comment on them feel free to do so.
Prov 15:8
8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD: but the
prayer of the upright is his delight. (KJV)
Prov 15:29
29 The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the
righteous. (KJV)
Prov 28:9
9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer
shall be abomination. (KJV)
Jn 9:31
31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a
worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. (KJV)
1P 3:12
12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are
open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that
do evil. (KJV)
1 Jn 3:22
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his
commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. (KJV)
God Bless,
Joe
(Roger’s
Response )
Quote
from eternalwords, posted on Nov. 16 2001,
04:58
According to this verse it is a righteous man that prays. Is these
evidence showing that Elijah prayed to be righteous or that he was
righteous, therefore he prayed?
Exactly. That's the question I have. Is James saying, "you want to
know how to get righteous? Pray fervently!" Does James see a cause
and effect relationship between prayer and righteousness as if
righteousness grows from the tree of prayer? On the other hand, perhaps
James assumes righteousness is the tree and prayer is the fruit.
(Roger
Responds)
Dear
CH,
I don't mean to question anyone's walk with Christ. It's just that
prayer is such a sacrosanct item in Evangelical circles that it never
gets the kind of scrutiny it needs in order to be sharp and fresh. I
might read the biographies of the great men and women of faith and
conclude that prayer made the difference. However, before I grant this
as gospel, I want to make sure I am not seeing things that aren't there.
People have a tendency to find what they are looking for, even when
other things might also be there too.
By way of illustration, let me examine the opening citation given in the
original post. I ask the first question, is it mere prayer that we
commend? According to the author, mere prayer is not enough. He makes an
obvious qualification, hidden by the fact that it sits right under our
nose. "Secret fervent believing prayer lies at the root of
all personal godliness." Prayer alone is not enough. The prayer
must be secret and fervent, and it must arise from belief.
To expand that qualification, we say that the prayers said in public do
not qualify. The prayer must be in secret because the prayers done in
secret arise from those who seek their reward from God, not from men as
Jesus said. The humble and contrite are not willing to parade their
secret longing for God's forgiveness for all to see.
Another qualification has to do with another state of heart. As James
says, "For that man ought not to expect that he will receive
anything from the Lord, being a double-minded man, unstable in all his
ways." The author recognizes that mere prayer is not enough. A man
of God will come to God with a certain expectation that God exists and
he is willing to bless. And as James says, he is not doubleminded. He
does not want more than one thing.
What did the author say makes a good missionary? "A competent
knowledge of the language where a missionary lives, a mild and winning
temper, a heart given up to God in closet religion. . . " A mild
and winning temper, what does that mean if not that the missionary
should be humble, willing to listen, respectful of others, with a good
idea of his status before a just God. He also speaks about the fact that
his heart is given up to God.
All of these things point to the quality of a person's character. These
qualities affect their prayers not the other way around. It isn't prayer
that makes them humble. It's their humility that adds quality to their
prayers. In other words, it isn't the fact that people pray fervently
and often that makes them fit for service. They are fit for service
because they are humble, contrite, sympathetic, and wise ministers of
God.
(Roger
responds to Wesley)
Wesley
-- If I hadn't read your posts before, your comments now would alarm me.
Roger -- Well, sorry about that. Like I said to Joe, I don't intend to
be controversial. However, I have noticed certain sacrosanct subjects in
Evangellicalism. Prayer is one of those. Perhaps your alarm bells are
going off due to that fact. Nonetheless, since we have a track record
with each other, I can take advantage of our mutual honor and respect to
raise the issue. I'm not trying to venture too far outside the pale of
orthodoxy, but I am trying to raise some questions. Perhaps people take
prayer for granted and leave that subject unexamined. But I think the
unexamined things are the cloudiest.
Wesley -- Jesus told the disciples in Gethsemane, Matthew 26:41
"Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation, the spirit indeed
is willing, but the flesh is weak. Would this not be a promise? That
through prayer we would receive a strengthening to deal with the
weakness of the flesh. What is he talking about? Spiritually they are
dead and dull and sleepy; and through prayer, they wouldn't have to be
this way.
Roger -- I wouldn't immediately take the passage that way. Notice, he
instructs them to keep watch for him. Why? Judus went after the
authorities to arrest him. The police were on the way. Jesus wanted a
quiet moment to compose himself. He was deeply grieved the passage says.
When we come to verse 41, we understand what he means by
"watch." He brought James, Peter and John as lookouts, not
wanting to be ambushed during his time of grief.
Prayer is not his main concern for them at this point. He wants them to
stay awake. It says several times in that passage that Jesus returned to
find them sleeping. In that case, the weakness of flesh has more to due
with the frailty of their body than it does their inability to avoid
sin. The passage itself gives us no clue that Peter, James, and John
were spiritually "sleepy." They were in fact, physically
sleepy.
Instead, Jesus seemed to know the kinds of pressures that his disciples
would face once Jesus died. In fact, we read about Peter's remarks
during his Lord's trial. He denied the Lord three times before the cock
crowed. Satan asked God to sift Peter like wheat. But Jesus prayed that
Peter's faith not fail. The phrase "that you may not enter into
temptation" is reminiscent of the Lord's Prayer, "do not lead
us into temptation, but deliver us from evil." It's the same thing.
Pray that God would not allow your faith to fail.
Consequently, the main issue is Jesus' request that the disciples stay
awake. Don't fall asleep at a time like this. Realize the importance and
significance of this moment. The cops are coming and I need you to watch
out for them, and I need you to be concerned for your own souls.
Is Jesus offering them a promise at this point? Pray now and you won't
fall into temptation? I don't think that is the emphasis of his words.
The mere act of prayer is not at issue. He isn't so much telling them to
pray as he is telling them what to pray for. I want you to pray and I
want the content of that prayer to be that God would keep you from
losing faith. It's not cause and effect; it's not prayer causes strength
and fidelity. It's more like, "I'm concerned that you aren't
concerned. Stay awake and make the content of your prayer all about
keeping the faith."
Wesley -- How about Jesus comments about prayer in Matthew 6? Didn't he
promise a open reward to those who pray secretly? Couldn't this not
include an increase in godliness?
Roger -- Yes. I'm not saying that God doesn't answer prayer. However,
let's make sure what Jesus has in mind. Does he mean that God rewards
prayer regardless of the content? Is God just into prayer for its own
sake? I don't think that's what Jesus had in mind. The emphasis is on
the secret prayer as contrasted with the open prayer. The issue in that
case has to do with the motivations. When the Pharasee prayed out in
public, what did he actually want? Did he actually want something from
God? Not really. He wanted praise from men and he got that. He wanted
the glory that the world gives, not God's approval. Jesus said he got
his reward in full. That is, he got what he wanted.
The contrast to that is not secret prayer but seeking God's approval.
God isn't into secret prayer for it's own sake. He can hear open prayer
as well as secret prayer. Motivation and intent are the issue. Are you
praying to seek God's approval or man's? The content of the prayer and
the motivation behind the prayer are more important than the form of
prayer or the bodily attitude. God doesn't care if you sit, stand,
drive, raise your hands, or speak out loud. All he wants is your heart.
The content of your prayer will reveal if you love him, respect him,
like what he likes, agree with his view of reality etc.
Wesley -- How about Paul in 1 Cor. 14 where he talks about praying with
the spirit and praying in tongues? Doesn't he say, that he thanks God
that he speaks with tongues more than them all?
Roger -- Yes. However, why does he say that? I believe that in the
context, he is glad that he speaks in tongues more than they because
they are doing it for wrong motives. Just like the Pharasees spoke in
public in order to gain glory for themselves, these Corinthians were
speaking in tongues to get glory from men. A spiritual gift like
speaking in tongues is quiet obvious and impressive. It became a way of
showing off, demonstrating how "spiritual" I am. Paul is
saying, "I'm glad that more of you aren't doing that."
Wesley -- Doesn't he say that he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks
not to man, but unto God? And that he that speaks in an unknown tongue
edifies himself.
Roger -- He was being sarcastic. It's obvious that people can't edify
themselves. We need each other for edification. Consequently, we need to
understand each other's speech. That's his point. He would rather that
they encourage each other toward moral, or spiritual improvement. You
can do more for each other with five understandable words, than a
thousand words in an unknown tongue.
Finally, as I said, I'm not encouraging people to avoid prayer. I'm not
saying that God doesn't answer prayer. I'm not suggesting that we gain
no benefit from prayer. I'm raising questions about the tight cause and
effect relationship the author's make about prayer. The emphasis is in
the wrong place. Prayer by itself is nothing. And God doesn't seem
concerned with our intensity, style, or form, as long as the content of
our prayer indicates our true longing. That's all I'm saying.
(C.
H. Responds to Roger)
Hi
Roger,
I respectfully disagree with you for several reasons. First, there are
the many scriptures that promote the benefit of praying and we have
listed and gone over most of them. Your explanations appear to have a
biased premise in the interpretation of those scriptures. Of course,
that is your right. However, there is no reason to read into the
scriptures what is obviously not there unless you are trying to force
the interpretation to lean towards your personal belief. A case in point
is your statement about Paul’s sarcasm.
You can obviously make the same claim against my use of the scriptures
to promote praying. However, prayer is very difficult to begin and
maintain. Therefore, I see no reason to be biased to explain the
scriptures in favor of praying when praying is not desirable and the
promulgation is not in the text. We are usually biased in our favor, not
against our favor.
Secondly, Christian history is replete with the statements of mighty
people of faith that extoll the value of praying and warn against the
dangers of not praying properly or enough. This appears to strongly
support the cause and effect that you seem to take issue with. In fact,
if there is little cause and effect in relation to prayer, then why pray
at all? One may as well take the fatalistic approach of hyper Calvinists
and say, que será será.
It may be that you have observed the ritual praying of people and it
turned you off. Or maybe your have never tested the benefits of an
intense prayer life and therefore do not truly know if there is a direct
relation in regard to cause and effect. However, I encourage you to
conduct an experiment by entering into a season of praying. Let us all
know the results after a couple of months. In my opinion, that will
convince you much more and quicker than anything that anyone can post on
this thread.
My personal experience is that prayer is so vital to my spiritual life
that I do not have enough superlatives to describe it. It is the area I
fight my greatest battles in. Flesh hates praying and will resist with
the meanest and most clever opposition. There is never enough time and
never a peaceful moment to enter into prayer. As soon as I begin
praying, I fight the greatest battles. I do not know of one individual
that prays or that doesn’t fight great battles, yet they are also
accomplishing mighty things for the kingdom of God.
I believe all opposition to a Christian’s growth is from the devil,
the flesh and the world system. In my opinion, Satan would have to
oppose the activity that does him the most damage.
BTW, can I recommend a good book on prayer that will explain a lot of
things you may have questions about? The book is “Quiet Talks on
Prayer” by S. D. Gordon. Another book that will greatly illustrate the
benefits of a praying individual is “Rees Howells: Intercessor.”
I do agree with you about the style and other little personal nuances of
praying. God is interested in our heart. However, people who have a
heart for God will communicate with Him frequently and seriously.
(Roger
Responds)
Happy
Holidays to you CH,
Of course, I knew what I was getting in to when I raised the other side
of the issue. I appreciate your respectful disagreement and in that
regard, I value it.
Just to make it clear again, I am not speaking against prayer. I am not
recommending that people refrain from prayer. I take issue with some of
the claims made in the initial post on this thread, which seem to
disagree with the Biblical view of prayer. Since my concerns involve the
Bible, I wished to speak to the issue from that point of view.
Perhaps if I make my view a little more explicit, it might help. You
see, my view of prayer is that prayer is communication with God. I go to
prayer when I need to speak to him. I might want something or I might
want to praise him or I might want to thank him. In that case, prayer is
a spontaneous expression of my real feelings and commitments of the
heart. My prayers are a deep expression of my inner humanity, creature
to creator, son to father, servant to Lord.
By using terms like "fervent" and "often", I assume
the authors have a different idea of prayer in mind. They seem to make
prayer out as a religious discipline, something regular, forced,
unnatural, and hard. These are certainly terms one would apply to a
discipline, not to a spontaneous expression of love, admiration, penitence, conviction, or gratitude.
Why would I make prayer into a discipline? I might pray on a regular
basis if I thought God demanded it or I might gain some benefit from it
apart from the content. But then, it wouldn't be an expression of my
humanity toward God, it would be a religious obligation of devotion to
God. In the former, I pray for me; I need to pray; In the latter, I pray
for God; he needs my prayer for some reason.
The question in my mind is which one is Biblical? Did Jesus and the
Apostles pray as an expression of their heart? Or did they view prayer
as a religious discipline? As you can see, I am appealing to the Bible.
I might not discount personal experience but I wouldn't rate my personal
experience on the same level as the Biblical record.
Should I be impressed with what "mighty people of faith" say
about their personal experience? Maybe. It depends. People will have a
tendancy to interpret their experience in their own favor, in the best
light. They may be mighty of faith but lack the understanding about what
role the discipline of prayer had in their experience. Was God impressed
with their discipline, hard work, fervency, and regularity? Or perhaps
God responded to their honesty, integrity, humility, love, and
gratitude.
With those two models in mind, I would like to respond to some of your
comments.
CH -- First, there are the many scriptures that promote the benefit of
praying and we have listed and gone over most of them.
Roger -- Now that I have laid out the two kinds of prayer, i.e.
spontaneous prayer or disciplined prayer, which one are you talking
about? Are you saying that the scriptures teach the benefits of
disciplined prayer? If so, can you help me find them?
CH -- However, there is no reason to read into the scriptures what is
obviously not there unless you are trying to force the interpretation to
lean towards your personal belief.
Roger -- Believe me, you aren't the first to say that I try to force
interpretations. However, I am working on that and intend to stand
corrected when someone shows me how my interpretations are forced. I
figure since both of us are looking forward to eternal life, we have
plenty of time to explore the issues.
CH -- However, prayer is very difficult to begin and maintain.
Roger -- I can understand your comment in terms of a spiritual
discipline. Granted, any discipline is hard to begin and maintain. On
the other hand, if Biblical prayer is spontaneous expressions of the
heart, what's hard about that?
CH -- In fact, if there is little cause and effect in relation to
prayer, then why pray at all?
Roger -- Good question. This gets to the heart of the matter. What's in
it for me? Should I pray five times a day if I don't get anything out of
it? And what am I getting out of it? What do I hope to achieve by making
prayer a discipline? Does the Bible teach a one for one correspondance
between disciplined prayer and spirituality? Where does true
spirituality come from?
CH -- In my opinion, that will convince you much more and quicker than
anything that anyone can post on this thread.
Roger -- Perhaps you are right. I might be convinced through experience,
just as the Mormons are convinced through the "burning in the
bosom." However, I have learned to test my feelings and experiences
against the Bible, just in case.
CH -- I believe all opposition to a Christian’s growth is from the
devil, the flesh and the world system. In my opinion, Satan would have
to oppose the activity that does him the most damage.
Roger -- Okay, I can deal with that. However, which do you think does
him the most harm, someone who prays 5 times a day, or someone who sits
and listens to God? What are the tools of Satan? Are they not lies and
deceit? What are the weapons against Satan? Are they not truth,
righteousness, and hope in the Gospel? Who is really doing battle with
the forces of darkness, those on their knees speaking to God, or those
on their knees listening to God?
(C.
H. Responds)
Hi
Roger,
E. M. Bounds, one of the mightiest men of prayer, wrote the post you
took issue with. Many leading Christians, past and present, respect him
as not only an authority on prayer, but one who practiced what he
preached. He is now departed and we have his thoughts on prayer written
in several books. His book, The Power of Prayer, is the first book on
prayer that I read as a young minister.
In a small way I can understand what you are trying to say, I think. If
you are saying that we shouldn’t turn prayer into ritualism, then I
agree. But if you are saying that praying with fervor, intensity and
frequency avails us nothing more than praying occasionally and casually,
then I totally disagree, respectfully of course. There is power in
prayer. This I completely believe with all my heart and soul. In 23
years of ministry, prayer is the only way that I got through some of my
battles. I could write a book and perhaps I will one day, but suffice it
for me to say that my experience is completely in accord with the Word
of God.
In Eph. 6, prayer is listed as one of the important elements we have to
fight against the works of darkness. I like to look at it this way. God
gave us five pieces of armor, one weapon and one communications system.
It is a complete package and we cannot diminish the value of any part. A
proper study on prayer that spans the entire Bible will give you an
understanding of how very important that praying is. If it is important
and it causes things to occur that would not naturally occur, such as
healing, obstacles moved, provision to come, and etceteras, then why
shouldn’t we use it as often as we can?
As I posted before, the two books I recommended will give you valuable
insight into the power of prayer. You may read them and disagree, but at
least you will know how most of the great warriors of faith believed
about prayer.
In closing, I must say that you do stand opposed to all of the great men
and women of God in past and present history with your view of prayer. I
don’t believe that you are an unspiritual person, but simply that you
do not understand the power of prayer or agree that there is more power
generated by prayer. If I have mistaken your position, I apologize.
BTW Roger,
I do have some articles on my prayer site that may interest you. The
following link will take you to an excerpt from S. D. Gordon's book,
Quiet Talks on Prayer. Reading it may help you decide whether or not you
want to purchase the book and read more. I'm sorry that I forgot about
the article and did not post a link to it sooner.
(Roger Responds)
Hi
CH,
The title of this thread is "Tendencies to be avoided", and in
the spirit of that title, I have attempted to point out certain
tendencies that I feel need to be avoided. One of those is the tendency
to accept the opinion of "mighty" Christians uncritically.
Secondly, I disagree with the author's view that there is power in
prayer, and I take issue with the current thinking on the expectations
of prayer. Finally, I think placing too much credence in our experience
is another tendency to be avoided.
That’s what I am arguing against. What am I arguing for? I believe
that the Biblical picture of prayer places the emphasis on God, not in
prayer. The worldly view of prayer includes the picture that we obligate
God with our prayers. The implications of that view are many: successful
prayer has certain aspects. 1) We force God’s hand if we continue to
go back to him often. Keep bugging him; keep hounding him until he gives
you what you want. 2) We force God’s hand if we prevail upon enough
people to pray with us. We have power in numbers. 3) God’s hands are
tied unless we do pray. God can not act without our prayers. He wants to
bless us, help us, and lead us, but he can not do those things unless we
pray. 4) Spiritual battles are won or lost based on my prayers. Angelic
beings use our prayers to fight spiritual battles with the forces of
darkness.
By contrast, the Biblical view of prayer is the opposite of that. God
moves without prayer. He is not inept or insecure. Mass prayer does not
move his hand more than a simple requests from a humble heart. Numbers
do not intimidate him. Goodness and love motivates him and he acts on
our behalf according to his wisdom and plan.
(C.
H. Responds)
Hi
Roger,
Thanks for your explanation. Even though I can agree with some of what
you are saying, I strongly disagree with most of it. I hope that you can
show me where you have discovered these scriptures that support your
claims. In my opinion and experience, the Scriptures prove quite the
opposite of what you are stating. If you say that there is no power in
prayer, and I say that there is, we each have to provide scriptures and
evidence of our claims. I would like to see some of your proof texts for
the lack of power in prayer. Since I don’t know you very well, would
you say that you live a productive Christian life even though you do not
believe in the power of prayer or some of the other historical beliefs
about prayer?
I do not believe that praying long is harassing, hounding, or bugging
God. You appear to have a earthly logic concerning prayer. Don’t you
believe that there is a spiritual realm and a physical realm? We do not
understand all about the spiritual realm, but we can obey God’s Word
and the results will follow.
(Luke 18:1-8 NKJV) Then He spoke a parable to them, that men always
ought to pray and not lose heart, {2} saying: "There was in a
certain city a judge who did not fear God nor regard man. {3} "Now
there was a widow in that city; and she came to him, saying, 'Get
justice for me from my adversary.' {4} "And he would not for a
while; but afterward he said within himself, 'Though I do not fear God
nor regard man, {5} 'yet because this widow troubles me I will avenge
her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.'" {6} Then the Lord
said, "Hear what the unjust judge said. {7} "And shall God not
avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears
long with them? {8} "I tell you that He will avenge them speedily.
Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on
the earth?"
Let’s take experience as one point that we disagree on. As to
“placing too much credence in our experience,” I agree that we
should not place too much credence in our experiences as single events
or when they conflict with the Word of God. However, experiencing the
power of prayer for these past 23 years and reading about the great men
and women of God who experienced the same, and seeing the power of
prayer revealed in the Scriptures, I’d say that some experience is
necessary to provide evidence of our claims.
If I believe that the Scriptures reveal that there is power in prayer,
and I pray for someone and they are healed, are you saying that the
person would have been healed whether I prayed or not? Also, you seem to
be saying that to have more people praying about a need is not necessary
either. However, the Apostle Paul desired that the Church pray for him
and often requested prayer. It is practically impossible to pray for
everyone and every circumstance that needs prayer without praying for a
long time. I also cannot pray for someone with a need without my heart
being touched with compassion and deep concern. If you are praying short
prayers, does this mean that you do not pray for other Christians who
have needs or are in ministry?
I do not know of one outstanding man or woman of God who believes as you
do and it is because they have experienced the power of prayer. Are you
saying that they would have been outstanding whether they had a mighty
prayer life or not? All of these people that I either know personally or
have read biographies about believe that it was their prayer life that
led them closer to God and generated more hunger for His Word.
I do know a lot of prayerless people who profess Christianity and they
are doing nothing for God at all. (I realize that you do not believe in
total prayerlessness, but I’m trying to establish a point.) Then I
know some professing Christians who pray a little bit, but believe
somewhat as you do about prayer, and they are also unproductive. I know
people who pray a lot with consistency and fervency, they are
accomplishing mighty things for the kingdom of God.
Therefore, I have history, the Scriptures, my personal experience, and
my relationship with people of prayer, and it all points to the fact
that there is power in prayer. You appear to be saying that none of that
matters, but it is only one’s interpretation of the Scriptures that
matters. How do I know that I have interpreted the Scriptures wrongly?
The only way I know is by either the Holy Spirit informing me that I am
wrong or by experience. Evidently, fruit is important in determining the
truth of things. If I say that there is no power in prayer and live an
unproductive Christian life, but I see people who pray living a more
productive life, should I not try their interpretation and application
of the Scriptures concerning prayer?
We want to know how people accomplish great things. I want to know how
the mighty people in Christian history were able to have such a
productive life. When they declare that is was the power of prayer, I do
not believe it is wise to say that it isn’t so simply because I do not
want it to be so. I cannot discount their experience, which is their
fruit. All that they could possibly be guilty of is teaching people to
pray too much, if there is such a thing.
Experience, as you term it, can mean an event or the results of a life
that is dedicated in certain manner. I do not believe that experience
should be taken against the Word of God, but the experience of a person
living God’s Word with proper results is a powerful testimony to the
truth.
I have had a life of experiences of praying with results. People have
been healed, delivered, provided for, and much more because of prayer. I
have prayed for answers and they didn’t come, so I kept praying until
they did. The answers proved to be correct. I have prayed for people who
were near death and enlisted others to pray, and these people were
healed. I have prayed for great lengths of time for certain needs to be
met and they were met, often in unusual was that indicate miracles.
I’ve known the experience of giving up on prayer and also of pressing
on in spite of circumstances. You cannot simply call that
“experience” and dismiss it as unimportant. There is no Scriptural
precedence for such a position, but quite the opposite. I will keep
practicing what I have learned by experience to be powerful praying
because it works. There is no hint of satanic intervention in this
practice. If it were a false experience, Satan would be involved in it
somehow. In fact, I’m sure that Satan hates praying.
You say that all we should do is turn to the Scriptures, but the
Scriptures are interpreted by more than our opinion. They are also
interpreted by the lives of the early Christians and those who have
lived since the early Church who have been might people of God.
(John 13:15 NKJV) "For I have given you an example, that you should
do as I have done to you.
(Phil 3:17 NKJV) Brethren, join in following my example, and note those
who so walk, as you have us for a pattern.
(2 Th 3:7-9 NKJV) For you yourselves know how you ought to follow us,
for we were not disorderly among you; {8} nor did we eat anyone's bread
free of charge, but worked with labor and toil night and day, that we
might not be a burden to any of you, {9} not because we do not have
authority, but to make ourselves an example of how you should follow us.
As a pastor, I have counseled with many people who were in spiritual
trouble over the years. Every one of them told me that they began to
have problems when they let down of their prayer life, did not pray as
much and as fervently. Every one of them who was able to recover from
their problems testified that it was a direct result of returning to the
level of frequency, intensity and amount of praying. I have also
discipled many new converts. The one’s who were not growing and
maturing that I was able to get involved in a dedicated prayer life,
began to progress rapidly. The one’s who remained casual and informal
about their prayer life soon drifted into sin and out of the fellowship.
Finally, the world does not have the power of prayer to help them
through this often harsh and demanding life. If there is no power in
prayer, then all we have is belief. That is nothing more than the world
has since many people in the world system believe in God and Jesus
Christ. In my opinion, the greatest sin of the Church today is
prayerlessness or weakness in prayer.
(James 5:16-18 NKJV) Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray
for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer
of a righteous man avails much. {17} Elijah was a man with a nature like
ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not
rain on the land for three years and six months. {18} And he prayed
again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit.
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