Chapter fifteen

Chapter Fifteen

In popular pretribulationalist's books, various questions are presented as points against the posttribulation position. Some of these questions I have answered elsewhere on this site, but I will deal with them briefly here for the purpose of quick referencing by the reader. I will not state my position in full, since it would take up a lot of space, but just the crux of each point. In addition, I will address some of the most common defenses presented by pretribulation rapturists when their doctrine is challenged. I don’t intend to answer every question, but only the most common ones.

The Following questions have been asked by leading Pretrib proponents.

I. The post-Tribulation position ignores the many scriptural promises of escape from the wrath of the Tribulation.

Answer: In the same sense, Pretribulationalists ignore the many scriptures exposing pretribulation rapture as a false doctrine. They also ignore the many scriptures and historical evidence of the Church suffering persecution. Also, concerning the above statement, the proper term isn’t the wrath of the Tribulation, but the wrath of God.

Secondly, there are not many scripture references to "escape" from the wrath of the Tribulation (wrath of God). There is only one reference using the word escape found in Luke 21 that could be construed as an escape from the Tribulation. In my opinion this scripture pertains to protection from the events of the Tribulation sent by God on the kingdom of the Antichrist.

(Luke 21:36 NKJV) ""Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.""

Since Jesus warned the Church they would be in these events, we cannot conclude that Luke 21:36 declares the Church will be raptured before they occur.

(Mat 24:9 NKJV) ""Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake."

Because of the false presumption that these scriptures belong only to the Jewish people, pretribulationalists ignore the words of Christ in favor of their own interpretations.

Also, the "we’re not appointed unto wrath" protest is an easy bump on the road to truth to navigate. First of all, there is no indication whatsoever in the Bible that God is going to pour out His wrath on Christians during the Tribulation period, and I am certainly not promoting such a thing. Therefore, the Church-is-not-appointed-unto-wrath protest begs the question. Of course we are not appointed to wrath, and I have not met a posttribber who says that we are. Why would God pour out wrath on His people whom He loves?

To my knowledge there is not one statement or piece of literature made by a pretribulation rapture opponent that declares the Church is going to suffer the wrath of God. This is a bogus argument in the least, and another area where dispensationalists do not grasp the intent of God’s Word. Apparently, pretribbers do not know when God's wrath is going to be poured out. Therefore they believe that to be in the seven-year period at any point is being "appointed unto wrath."

I do believe that Christian's will be subject to the wrath of the Antichrist as the Scriptures clearly indicate. It is an irrefutable fact is that the people of God were not appointed to wrath when He poured out wrath on Egypt. Instead, they remained in Egypt until the wrath was finished. What did God do with His people? He protected them while in Egypt...not removed them from Egypt. During the last plague, the blood applied to the lentils of the doors was a sign to the death angel not to enter.

We can even see this same order in Revelation when God pours out one of the plagues.

"They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads."(Rev 9:4 NKJV)

It is evident that protection from His wrath is provided for God’s people. We do not have to be taken out of the world for God to keep us from His wrath. I am surprised that people do not give more credit to God for His ability to do all things. Nothing is impossible for Him!

Another irrefutable fact is that even though God loves His people, He has not always spared them from persecution in the New Testament age. One only has to read Foxes Book of Martyrs to see that this is true. The persecution of Christian's by the evil people is continuing today in many countries. The reader should consider that millions of Christians were martyred and millions more suffered unspeakable horrors in the twentieth century. The beginning of this century has not seen a change in the persecution of Christians world-wide.

Except for America and a few other democracies, almost the entire world is persecuting Christians to some degree. We are in tribulation right now, so why do we believe that we will somehow escape tribulation later? Just because America has not experienced full-blown persecution, it doe not mean that we will escape it.

Pretribulationalists counter with the claim that the Tribulation will be filled with infinitely worse horrors than the present tribulation that people are facing today. First of all, that statement is reveals an ignorance of what type and degree of torture many Christians are enduring today. I cannot even speak of these horrors. However, if anyone is curious, they can go to the Voice of the Martyrs website for more information. You can find this site at the following URL. http://www.persecution.com/

Secondly, the Scriptures speak only of beheading as the type of persecution Christians will endure in the seven-year period. I would like to know where pretribulationalists get their information about Tribulation persecution horrors. However, beheading is one of the most humane ways to die. What is death during a tribulation period that is marked by catastrophic plagues and events? Is it the worst possible thing we can imagine happening to us? Only weak Christians think this way. When one considers Revelation twenty, we can understand that such a death would be a glorious one.

(Rev 20:4-6 NKJV) "And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. {5} But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. {6} Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."

Death is nothing more than a quick departure to Heaven and eternal life. That is not to mention leaving a world during a period of time when it is being pounded by the wrath of evil men, catastrophic cosmic events, and later by the wrath of God.

II. The Posttribulation position trivializes the Second Coming.

Answer: It is incredible how consistently pretribulationalists accuse everyone else of doing what is obviously a fruit long associated with pretribulationism. Pretribulationism truly trivializes the Second Coming by preempting it with a poof-we’re-gone doctrine that has absolutely zero scriptural validity. The Second Coming in Revelation has no significance to the Church if there are no Christians on the earth when it occurs!

III. The post-trib theory allows no time for the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

Answer: Pretribulationalists misunderstand what the Bible states concerning the Judgment Seat of Christ and use portable chronology or misconstrued chronology to confuse the timing of these events. Here are the scripture's in question:

(Rom 14:10-12 NKJV) "But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. {11} For it is written: "As I live, says the LORD, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God." {12} So then each of us shall give account of himself to God."

(2 Cor 5:10 NKJV) "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

I am not convinced that Paul is teaching two separate judgment seats in this age with these scriptures. In the first scripture he does use the term Judgment Seat of Christ, but also explains by quoting Isaiah 45:23.

"I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath." (Isa 45:23 NKJV)

"As I live, says the LORD, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God." {12} So then each of us shall give account of himself to God." (Rom 14:11-12 NKJV)

Rather than trying to establish two judgments, it appears more like Paul is teaching about the judgment of the righteous and the wicked that occurs after Christ's coming . Revelation 11:18 declares the judgment of Christ right after the sounding of the Seventh Trumpet, which is the point of His Second Coming according the Paul in I Corinthians 15:51-52.

( Rev 11:18 NKJV) "The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth.""

There are more problems with pretribulation rapture timing concerning these events than with posttribulation theology. Since pretribulationalists declare these events happen just prior to the Second Advent, how does a PTR allow time for them to be fulfilled?

"The Wedding and Marriage Supper of the Lamb follow the Judgment Seat, just prior to the Glorious Appearing. Only the pre-Trib position allows sufficient time (at least seven years) for such events to be fulfilled with dignity and grace. The post-Trib believer is forced to relegate both the Judgment Seat of Christ for millions of people and the Marriage Ceremony and Supper of the Lamb to "the twinkling of an eye" or ignore them altogether." (LaHaye, Rapture Under Attack)

One has to ask how long before the Second Advent do these events occur? Minutes, seconds, days? Certainly not years since the city of Babylon has just been destroyed. Those millions of believers had better eat fast in that case because there will be little time to enjoy the full course. However, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb is not presented in Revelation as occurring until after the Tribulation period.

19:1 After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, "Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! 2 For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her." 3 Again they said, "Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!" 4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying, "Amen! Alleluia!" 5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying, "Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!" 6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, "Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! 7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready." 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. 9 Then he said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!'" Rev 19:1-9 (NKJV)

Also, there are Christians being martyred on the earth.

( Rev 7:14 NKJV) "And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

( Rev 12:11 NKJV) ""And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death."

This means the Bride of Christ is still being completed during the Tribulation. Are some being judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ, while others are being married and yet others are eating? This is too far-fetched and doesn't have a scriptural basis.

IV. The post-trib position does not allow time for Christ to keep His promise to take believers to be with Himself in the Father’s house (see John 14:1-3).

Answer: This appears to beg the question. Where are the scriptures that declare we must be with Him in His Father’s house before He defeats Antichrist? John 14:1-3 doesn't say anything about the Antichrist or defeating him.

V. Post-Tribbers place the church on earth during the Tribulation for no clear reason.

Answer: If pretribulationalists do not understand why the Church is here on the earth during the Tribulation, maybe it is because they do not understand the purpose and history of suffering persecution for Christ.

24 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, 25 choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26 esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward. Heb 11:24-27 (NKJV)

14 But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you are blessed. "And do not be afraid of their threats, nor be troubled." 16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter. 17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now
"If the righteous one is scarcely saved,
Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?"
19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator. 1 Peter 3:14-19 (NKJV)

12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.
2 Tim 3:12-14 (NKJV)

Daniel also gives a reason why the Church is on earth during the Tribulation.

(Dan 11:35 NKJV) ""And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time."

God has reasons for what He does that many times escape the logic of the natural mind, yet we are bought with a price and are on this earthly sphere to magnify God, as Paul said, by life or by death.

(Phil 1:20 NKJV) "according to my earnest expectation and hope that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ will be magnified in my body, whether by life or by death."

VI. Post-Tribbers cannot explain why the church is so prominent in Revelation chapters 1-3 yet so totally absent during the wrath portion in chapters 6-18.

Answer: The Church is not prominent in chapters 6-18 because God is not pouring out His judgment on her. This should be clear enough without further explanation. However, the Church is indicated in several scripture's between 6 and 18 as being on earth or as having just left through martyrdom. We do not have to explain what is totally obvious. Mr. LaHaye gets around this fact by declaring that these saints are Jewish and therefore not the Church. The only way one can arrive at that conclusion is to accept pretribulationists claims because it isn't in the Scriptures.

VII. The post-trib view steals the Blessed Hope.

Answer: We can’t steal what is not there. PTR invents a myth and labels it the Blessed Hope. Then they accuse posttribulationalists of stealing it. If the myth is gone, maybe it is because it didn't exist in the first place. Has anyone seen this missing myth? If you find it, would you please give it back? It's all been a big mythake! In the insurance business it is fraud to insure something that doesn’t exist and then claim a loss on the item because of theft. (Pardon my weak attempt at humor, I mean no harm.)

The term blessed hope is simply a poetic phrase Paul used to describe the second coming of Christ Jesus, which occurs at the end of the age. I'm certain that he never meant it to become the title of a false doctrine. The phrase is only mentioned once in the New Testament. It is logical that any phrase that is considered for the title of a doctrine should be repeated, such as salvation, saved, and etceteras.

13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:12-14 (NKJV)

One has to wonder why the phrase "Glorious Appearing" did not also become the popular title of a false doctrine. There are many other phrases and euphemisms in the Bible that could be turned into titles of doctrines, cherished with mushy sentimentalism and angrily protected against any attempts to bring them down to earth with the rest of the Scripture. I'm glad that pretribbers are only concerned with "blessed hope" that is only found once in the Bible, and "Rapture" that is not found at all in the Scriptures. However, I predict that some pretribber will one day have a Bible printed that will move the word "Rapture" from the references notes and into the text.

VIII. The post-trib view destroys either imminence or literalness.

Answer: Again, it is impossible to destroy what does not exist except as a figment of someone's imagination. Since Jesus didn’t teach full-time imminence, neither should we assume it to be a biblical doctrine. Besides that, pretribulationists have done more to destroy imminence than anyone by first postulating the theory of imminence, i.e. that there will be no signs before Jesus appearing, and then writing a deluge of books, producing videos, tapes, huge charts and performing at numerous speaking engagements to demonstrate that many signs must occur before the rapture. Is this a contradiction or what?

IX. Post-Tribbers are inconsistent about literalness.

Answer: Such a thing is presumed. Pretribulationalists declare that everyone who disagrees with them also denies literal interpretation of the Scriptures. But then, these same accusers of the brethern set about to forsake literal interpretation themselves. Just because pretribulationists declare their interpretation to be literal does not make it so. I believe in literal interpretation of the Scripture’s.

It can be clearly demonstrated how Darby, Scofield and Dr. Tim LaHaye, deny the literal words of Christ and the apostle Paul and insert their own words, which are completely opposite of the Scriptures. Such a practice is literal, but only because it literally denies the Word of God.

First, we certainly do find the glorious appearing and gathering together unto him in verse one, and according to Paul both occur after the appearing of the Antichrist. In addition, whether Paul meant "and" or "even", he is obviously NOT speaking of two separate events, and most certainly not a two-phase Second Coming separated by seven years. Imposing such an interpretation on the text is deception---deliberate or delusional. Instead, Paul is speaking of one event or two events occurring simultaneous in a split-second (twinkling of an eye, 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 NKJV). Otherwise, and the interpretation of Matthew 24:30-31 would be two events separated by measure of time.

(Matthew 24:30-31 NKJV) "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. {31} "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Now, let me reveal just how confused things can get when trying to unravel gobbledygook. Stay with me to the end here and you will understand how wild it can get when debating pretribbers. Put on your intellectual seatbelts for a wild ride!

In trying to separate Paul's statement to come up with two events, Dr. LaHaye seems to conveniently forget that our gathering together unto Him is not without a Glorious Appearing regardless of whether it is pre or post. Therefore, if the Glorious Appearing and the Gathering Together (pretribulation rapture) are separate events, and the Gathering Together rapture occurs during one/first-half of the Glorious Appearing, then what do we call the second half of the Glorious Appearing? Is it a Not-so-glorious Appearing? It could not be! The second-Second Coming of Christ would have to also be a Glorious Appearing since it is an equal half of the first-Second Coming, which is also the Glorious Appearing. If not, then we have a Glorious Appearing and an Inglorious Appearing separated by seven years! If so, then we have two Glorious Appearings! If not, then the two Second Comings would have to be two separate events, not one event separated by seven years. If they are separate events, then we have two Second Comings, which any pretrib scholar knows is impossible. You cannot have two Second Comings. Instead, you would have to have a Second Coming and a Third Coming, and there are absolutely no scriptural references for such a notion. In fact, that is why pretrib scholars came up with the one-event-separated-by-seven-year thingy, i.e., to avoid having to explain a Third Coming of Christ. If I am sounding confusing here, it is only because of the material I am forced to deal with.

Additionally, falling away in Strong’s Greek dictionary (number 646), is the word apostasia, which means defection from or forsaking the truth. One has to wonder what role the pretribulation rapture doctrine will play in the great last days deception and subsequent apostasy

X. What about Revelation 4:1?

Answer: Well, what about it? Revelation 4:1 is used by a majority of pretribulation rapturists to indicate the rapture of the church in Revelation. They declare that when John is called to "come up here," that the rapture takes place. Then they go on to point out the fact that the word church isn’t mentioned again in Revelation.

(Rev 4:1 NKJV) "After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.""

I usually begin by informing them that I do not know of a major theologian that agrees with basing the PTR position on Revelation 4:1, even theologians who support pretribulation rapture. There is also the problem of the missing trumpet and the missing resurrection of the dead. It is not good hermeneutics to force the Scriptures into such vague and metaphorical references for a doctrine. Using such a rule I could point out a scripture that would provide even greater proof that the church will not be raptured before the tribulation.

(John 17:15 NKJV) ""I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one."

If Revelation 4:1 is suitable for depicting pretribulation rapture, then John 17:15 is even more powerfully in favor of the Church going through the tribulation. At best, we are at a stand-off here. Pretribulation rapturists have to face the fact that there are no proof texts for that doctrine and you cannot make a proof text out of one that is most certainly not one.

I could also give a Scripture here that seems to indicate that Jesus will come back only one more time and He will touch the ground.

(Acts 1:10-11 NKJV) "And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, {11} who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.""

He left the ground and entered the heavens once as they looked on. If you take the angels words literally that He will come back in like manner, He will leave the heavens and touch the ground only once. How literal do pretribbers want me to be here?

The fact that the word church is not mentioned in several chapters of the book of Revelation is also not a significant factor and it doesn’t mean the church is not there. The word church is also not mentioned in Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 and 2 Peter, and 1 and 2 John. Does this mean those books in the Bible were not written to the Church or does not pertain to us? It is dangerous hermeneutics to attempt to make doctrinal points out of insignificant data. Such a practice opens the Bible up to wacky interpretation based on someone's obsession with the minor turn of a phrase, non-pertinent omissions or poetic peculiarities. You have to also consider that God is dealing with wicked world system in Revelation. Since the Church is not appointed unto wrath, why would God make the word church prominent during the revelation of these things?

XI. What about the removal of the Holy Spirit?

Answer: Many pretribulation rapturists believe that the Holy Spirit is removed right before the Antichrist is revealed. Then based on that faulty presumption, they go on to declare that the Church could not be here if the Holy Spirit departs.

My answer is that the Scripture’s do not say the Holy Spirit departs, only that he who now restrains is taken out of the way.

(2 Th 2:6-7 NKJV) "And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. {7} For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way."

We must not forget that the Holy Spirit is God, and is therefore omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. If He is omnipresent then He is everywhere, so where does He go since He is everywhere? There are also people doing great things during the tribulation period, giving their lives for Christ, and even being saved. How does this happen without the Holy Spirit?

Marvin Rosenthal, author of "Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church," has a theory that the "restrainer" is Michael the archangel. I don’t necessarily agree with him, but I can’t prove him wrong at this point either. We don’t always have to come to blows and draw blood when we disagree. It is sufficient to prove that the scripture in question is not a qualifier for the pretribulation rapture.

XII. Why is there no Biblical instruction on preparation for the Tribulation?

Answer: The only way one can determine that there is no Biblical instruction for the tribulation is because they have a preconceived mind set before they read the Bible. Therefore, they do not recognize that the New Testament is full of instructions concerning tribulation. This is the "Once Saved, Always Saved" mentality coming into play here. The OSAS mentality does not realize that one has to live holy in order to reach heaven under the New Covenant. People deluded by this false doctrine have the erroneous idea that they have to do something more to enter the tribulation than to enter heaven. In other words, they can live licentious and enter heaven, but they have to clean up their lives to enter the tribulation. This may explain why OSAS proponents are the leading developers and promoters of PTR.

Upon a cursory reading of eschatological scriptures you can discover that there are plenty of instruction as how to deal with tribulation. I will post some of them for you here, but I suggest the reader take the time to discover these things for themselves since the Bible is extremely clear concerning how to prepare for the tribulation. The preparation we should have for the Tribulation (seven-year period) is the same preparation we should have for life in general.

A. Be alert for deception.

1. (Mat 24:4 NKJV) "And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you."

2. (Mat 24:23-25 NKJV) ""Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. {24} "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. {25} "See, I have told you beforehand."

B. Prepare yourself to endure suffering.

1. (Mat 24:13 NKJV) ""But he who endures to the end shall be saved."

2. ( Rev 2:10 NKJV) ""Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life."

3. (1 Pet 4:19 NKJV) "Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator."

C. Have a proper understanding of eschatology.

1. (Mat 24:15 NKJV) ""Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),"

D. Be watchful when you see the signs.

1. (Mat 24:42 NKJV) ""Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming."

E. Don’t become complacent.

1. (Mat 24:48-51 NKJV) ""But if that evil servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' {49} "and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, {50} "the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, {51} "and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

2. (Rev 2:4-5 NKJV) ""Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. {5} "Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place; unless you repent."

F. Have "oil" in your lamps.

1. (Mat 25:1-4 NKJV) ""Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. {2} "Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. {3} "Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, {4} "but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps."

XIII. What about the difference between Israel and the Church?

Answer: Many pretribulationalists view the Church as a institution rather than and organism. This may explain why some of them still call the Roman Catholic church "The Church." They seldom capitalize church when referring to a protestant Church, but always capitalize Church when dealing with the false Roman Catholic church.

Israel, the institution, the nation, is distinct from the Church, but the Jewish people Jesus addressed His remarks, His teachings and prophecies to, were and are the Church although they were also citizens of Israel. I’m a citizen of America, but I’m also a citizen of Heaven. The remarks you make about the destiny of my country pertain to me also, but my spiritual destination is not affected by what happens to my country.

Because Israel has held an important place in the history of the Old Testament does not mean it has overpowering importance in the New Testament. The Church is the central organism of the New Testament and Jesus is its central figure. Very few scriptures are addressed to Israel the nation in the New Testament .

Dispensationalists make Israel more prominent in the New Testament, and then they parlay this invented prominence into a "wild card" position. In other words, if they can’t explain a scripture or if a scripture conflicts with their dispensational mind set, they simply blame it on Israel. This seems to fix everything wrong with PTR in their minds. Beware of the "prophecy" teacher who continually imposes Israel in texts that are clearly not meant for Israel .

XIV. What about Revelation 3:10? We are suppose to be kept from the Tribulation.

Answer: Pretribulationalists try to twist this scripture into a rapture scripture by playing with the simple Greek preposition. They render the simple Greek preposition ek as out of instead of from, in order to render the scripture to say, "I will also keep you out of the hour of trial—." This could faintly promote the idea of a pretribulation rapture. This is just grasping at straws by pretribulationalists. Besides, the wrath of God will be poured out in one hour according to Revelation, so even if ek meant what pretribbers insist it means, then it could just as easily be applied to the posttrib position.

( Rev 3:10 NKJV) ""Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

(Rev 14:6-8 NKJV) Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth; to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people; {7} saying with a loud voice, "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water." {8} And another angel followed, saying, " Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."

(Rev 18:9-10 NKJV) "The kings of the earth who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her will weep and lament for her, when they see the smoke of her burning, {10} "standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, 'Alas, alas, that great city Babylon , that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.'

However, from is not out of as pretribulationalists insist. God promises to protect His people who keep His commandments and to preserve them from the hour of trial, which is not doubt His wrath. The persecution begins at the half-way mark in the seven-year period and the wrath comes at the end.

The word keep in the Greek is as important as the word from.

Strong's Concordance number, 5083. tereo, tay-reh'-o; from teros (a watch; perh. akin to G2334); to guard (from loss or injury, prop. by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from G5442, which is prop. to prevent escaping; and from G2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), i.e. to note (a prophecy; fig. to fulfil a command); by impl. to detain (in custody; fig. to maintain); by extens. to withhold (for personal ends; fig. to keep unmarried):--hold fast, keep (-er), (ob-, pre-, re) serve, watch.

There are also several more scripture's that we should consider with Revelation 3:10.

(Rom 5:9 NKJV) "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him."

(1 Th 1:9-10 NKJV) "For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, {10} and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."

It is important for the reader to note that the wrath of God is poured out in the last part of the Tribulation period. In fact, it is the final act Gods does before He ends the tribulation. Note the following scriptures:

(Rev 6:12-17 NKJV) "I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. {13} And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. {14} Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. {15} And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, {16} and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! {17} "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?""

This scene is a prelude to the wrath of God being poured out. It is right before the coming of the Lord. If you studied the charts in the previous chapters, you will understand that I believe the 21 events happen concurrently instead of, as dispensationalists believe, in succession. Thus martyrdom is not a part of the wrath of God, but the wrath of man.

When the Seventh trumpet sounds, the wrath of God comes.

(Rev 15:1 NKJV) "Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete."

(Rev 15:7 NKJV) "Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever."

( Rev 16:19 NKJV) "Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath."

So we see the wrath of God about to come after the Sixth Seal, and it comes after the Seventh Trumpet and is completed with the Seventh Bowl. At the Seventh Trumpet, the Church is raptured and so are not here when the wrath of God is poured out. Even if they are here during some of the outpouring of His wrath, they are kept from, i.e., protected from His wrath.

XV. What about the Yo-Yo effect?

Answer: Among the many presumptuous and unlettered charges pretribulationists make against the posttribulation position is the charge that post-tribbers teach a "yo-yo" theory of the rapture. I don’t truly know what all the other posttribbers teach, but I do not teach anything of a sort. The pretribulationist presumes that if we are "raptured" after the Tribulation, we would go up into the sky and immediately turn around and come back, thus the charge of promoting a "yo-yo" theory of the rapture is leveled at posttribulationism in an attempt to deride that position.

I will deal with this charge by effectively pointing out that pretribulationists use portable chronology that affords them the capabilities of racing from one point to another in the eschatological sequence of events as the need arises. When they do so, they find they have some of the same problems they accuse posttribulationists of having.

First, let’s go to 1 Thessalonians 4 to see clearly what will take place at the time of the posttribulation coming of Jesus Christ.

(14) "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus."

(17) "Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." (1 Th 4:14 and 17 NKJV)

Clearly, those who are dead in Christ are coming back with Jesus at His second coming. The dead believers rise first, which is the resurrection. The living believers' departure to join them eternally is the catching away, or rapture if you please, and is not the resurrection. It may have been a lack of scriptural integrity that caused Darby to compound the resurrection and the catching away into one word called rapture. This helped him to avoid dealing with the fact Revelation twenty declares the first resurrection is after the Tribulation. Also, those scripture's do not say anything about the believers turning around and coming back to the earth. It just says we will be together with them (the resurrected dead) and always with the Lord.

This poses a greater dilemma for pretribulationalists in that they contend the dead are resurrected, go up into heaven. Then they would have to immediately turn around so that they can be seen coming with Christ to meet the living who are being raptured, all in the blink of an eye. And they accuse posttribulationists of having a "yo-yo" theory!

Also, you might remember that the pretrib theory of the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Wedding of the Bride and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb is that these events are going to take place right before the coming of Christ. If these events occur as pretribulationalists insists, then there still isn’t any time to fulfill them! There certainly isn’t seven years available just prior to His coming to fulfill these things with "dignity and grace." Such a proposal raises more questions than it solves and still has the same timing problem that posttribulation is accused of having.

The problem with these pretribulational theories is that there is no scripture that depicts a Wedding, a Marriage Supper, or a Judgment Seat of Christ, during the Tribulation. There is a scripture that depicts the Wedding after the coming of the Lord.

(Mat 25:10 NKJV) ""And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut."

There is also a scripture that announces the Marriage Supper of the Lamb right after Babylon is destroyed.

"After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, "Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! {2} "For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her." {3} Again they said, "Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!" {4} And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the throne, saying, "Amen! Alleluia!" {5} Then a voice came from the throne, saying, "Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!" {6} And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, "Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! {7} "Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready."" (Rev 19:1-7 NKJV) (emphasis mine)

If the Wedding is after the Lord’s Second Coming and the Marriage Supper is after Babylon is destroyed, then it is important to note that the pretribulation rapture cannot claim its validity based on allowing sufficient time for these two events to be fulfilled with "dignity and grace."

XVI. What about the Battle of Armageddon?

Answer: Now we come to the time of the Battle of Armageddon. When will this battle take place? It apparently takes place when Jesus comes. This is the reason He removes all the living believers. The judgments that happened before His appearing are nothing compared to His wrath that will be revealed when He comes. We are not appointed unto wrath.

(2 Th 2:8 NKJV) "And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming."

(Rev 19:19-21 NKJV) "And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. {20} Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. {21} And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh."

I do not know that we will have to fight in the battle of Armageddon since the Lord Jesus does all the damage with the sword of His mouth and brightness of His coming. My opinion is that we will observe from a heavenly view as He overcomes the Antichrist and his armies. Thus, it is not inconceivable that we can be taken off the earth and caught up with the approaching saints to observe our Lord pouring out His final wrath on the wicked one and his followers. That is a great satisfaction that I do not believe God would hold from us.

(Rev 19:11-14 NKJV) "Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. {12} His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. {13} He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. {14} And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses."

XVII. Who will populate the Millennium?

Answer: Dr. Robert Gundry answers this question very well in his book, First, the Antichrist. He writes:

"That some of them both (Jews) survive and enter the millennial kingdom seems clear enough from Zechariah 14:16...'everyone who is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of Hosts.' These can't consist of people born during the millennial kingdom because Zechariah describes them as 'everyone who is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem.' Nor can they consist of people saved during the tribulation, because Zechariah goes on to hold out the possibility that some of them will 'not go up to Jerusalem to worship the king, the Lord of Hosts' and will therefore receive 'the punishment' of a 'plague' (14:17-19)." (insert mine)

Conclusion:

The Darbyite doctrines that pretribulationalists intertwine in eschatological chronology causes confusion in their own ranks ranks. Though they insist that posttribulation is hard to understand, they do not seem to understand that the same thing is advertised about the pretribulation position.

There is also a measure of hypocrisy on the part of the leading supporters of pretribulation rapture. A conspiracy of pretribulational writers have completely disregarded the historical and scriptural truth about eschatology. However, they accuse posttribulationalists of being liberal and apathetic.

Dr. Tim LaHaye, in his book, Rapture Under Attack, quotes Gerald Stanton who writes that apostasy is "the natural outgrowth of the (posttribulation) principle of interpretation." (parenthesis mine). However, I believe that the pretribulation position has been a major factor in producing the Great End-times Apostasy. I believe that it has created a natural atmosphere for the growth of the type of apathy and complacency that will lead to the Great Apostasy.

Pretribulationalists absolutely refuse to let the Scripture’s speak for themselves. They reverse the meaning of the Scripture’s as I previously illustrated. They allegorize the word of God when their position is in danger of losing its viability to the truth. The Pretribulational system of exegesis is as erroneous as the one that the religious leaders employed before Christ's first coming. They claim literal interpretation, and then peer at the Scripture’s through the eyes of J. N. Darby and his long line of successors.

Dr. Tim LaHaye points to the popularity of the pretribulation rapture doctrine as its validity. I counter that the popularity of a doctrine in times of great apostasy is never criteria for judging its truth. This is evidenced by the popularity of the false and deeply egregious doctrine of Unconditional Eternal Security. Also, he has done much to popularize the doctrine with a series of fictional books. This is not about how popular something is, but whether it can be substantiated by the Scriptures. Pretribulation rapture absolutely cannot be substantiated by the Scriptures.

Is pretribulation rapture doctrine dangerous? Absolutely! And no doubt many will lose their souls as a result.

The following words of Gerald Stanton, whom Dr. LaHaye quotes generously, more correctly apply to the pretribulation rapture than the posttribulation position. How he can declare the following statement about posttribulationism with a straight face is beyond comprehension.

"This business of...twisting and wrenching of Scripture in the vain attempt of making it say something other than what it does say—this is a return to the methods of Plato and Origen and constitutes a dangerous departure from conservative biblical interpretation, which is literal interpretation. It is a departure which endangers all for which fundamental, premillennial men stand."

In that statement Mr. Stanton, and Dr. LaHaye by association, condemn the early Church fathers, and every great person of God that lived before and after J. N. Darby. They accuse many godly Christians today who are guilty of nothing more than exposing the obvious, flagrant violations of misinterpretation and false presentation of the Scriptures produced by the pretribulation rapture doctrine.

It is a wonder that the Church made it through over 1800 years without Darby and his fellow cohorts! I am glad that we can refer to the writings of the Early Church so that this error cannot tie itself any closer to Jesus Christ than J. N. Darby. Without a shadow of doubt, I consider Darby to be the domineering originator and C. I. Scofield the primary diffuser of this incredible prevarication foisted on the Body of Christ beginning 1830 years after the death of Christ.

The Church is suppose to be a light that shines in darkness just as Christ said, but pretribulation rapture is a dark that shines in lightness. One has no problem revealing its shallow foundation with a literal interpretation of the Scripture’s.

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